Your ideal.
Posted on 6 Nov 2006
So what is your ideal worship setting and/or experience. Does anything in the previous blog resound with you? Anything sound silly?
{My apologies for not having a working ‘comment’ section in the previous blog; still learning this blogger stuff. Do have at it here instead.}
Bricker
6 Nov 2006 (21:44)
zdk,
sweet blog. Urban Hymns is one of my favs.
I love your passion about this. In the last few years I have been extremely frustrated with the typical worship service we encounter in churches today. Your ideas are great and I hope to brainstorm some with you. I think all senses should be used and nothing is off limits with God. Worship has become too formulated. 3 Chords and a Capo, prayer and greeting…. We have boxed God in. Or maybe we have Boxed us in and missed out on God. We are missing out on Truth and Beauty for the sake of safe music and safe experience. I would say much of the best worship music has never been up for a dove award. And worship is more than music and we tend to forget that. Ok i’m outy.
Patrick Dodson
7 Nov 2006 (05:07)
Zadok, I wanna be around you…
We move towards beauty, not away from crap. So it’s not what we don’t want, that’s whining. It’s whatever is beautiful, pure, amazing, good. And you can do this, the people around you can do this. The adventure is the process, not nailing it, you guys can do this. It starts small, it morphs, starting is important. Don’t think too much about this, create something. God’s pleasure is in the creation, the process and the joy of being His and being alive. Glorify God and enjoy Him forever.
My suggestion, get a few people together, get the Paramount and have a go. The world around you is dying for this.
Love you
Patrick
Nova
7 Nov 2006 (06:20)
i know this is probably the opposite of what you’re envisioning, but i’ve been really enjoying evensong worship at the local episcopal church lately. it’s been exactly what my spiritual walk has needed. it’s very small (which is the opposite of the paramount), intimate and focused entirely on worship (in the literal sense, not the music sense) and scripture-reading. (no band [just voices], no sermon, no meet-and-greet, no announcements). you should try visiting one sometime, just to get another perspective on worship. i bet you could incorporate elements of evensong into your grander idea.
thank you for exploring this and inviting new ideas, zadok. much needed, much desired, much sought.
mark mohrlang
7 Nov 2006 (06:51)
As I’ve already shared with you… much love have I for you. And I can’t believe I made it into the blog. I am honored. And stoked to follow with you and see where this goes.
scott Erickson
8 Nov 2006 (18:12)
holy shit…. i have been dreaming of this for a year…..
Rebecca
10 Nov 2006 (03:39)
I agree wholeheartedly with the points that worship cannot be done in 15 mins and can’t be followed up with announcements. Some of the best worship times I have been in involved singing one song-one song-for 12 minutes, with the entire worship time lasting almost the standard 90-minute service time. And it wasn’t choppy, quick-get-the-song-over-with worship, there was space to reflect and allow the Spirit of God to speak, and to allow us to respond to what the Lord was saying as we encountered Him. We sacrifice so much to schedules and service times. I’d love to experience the worship time you are describing.
cris
10 Nov 2006 (04:22)
Too many worship settings have music=worship. Then we have a very rational sermon. Then maybe a bit more music=worship. How can we together bless each other and bless God? How can we create a space in time and in community that holds beauty, truth, and goodness…or faith hope and love.
I picture something where all are participants, there is a goal of blessing one another, not just showing up and being together, and beauty. Somehow beauty must be a part of it.
sorry i don’t have any specifics. These are some of my initial ramblings. Thanks for the question.
Maybe fingerpainting should be involved. Dancing in the rain.
philter
10 Nov 2006 (17:12)
yo man. I think what you are thinking is great. I believe there is beauty in worship. Beauty that exceeds (however you spell it) a band up front singing songs. I believe that when we worship God we worship who He is. We can do that and should do that by looking at Him as a creative God, so we should be creative in our worship. An intimate God, so we should be intimate in our worship. An interactive God, so we should be interactive in our worship. A God of the new and the old, so we should not just do that same thing that people have been doing for years in worship, singing with a band.
I want more beauty, I want to worship God in every aspect. Anyway, lots to say.
Sarah
10 Nov 2006 (22:23)
I think worship should be beautiful and original and ancient and mysterious, just like God. Thanks for the statement about band members that suck. I agree.
Sunday nights at St. Mark’s are awesome. The best part is I can lay on the floor of a church and know that I am not being silently judged. It seems right to worship from the ground. Chairs seem like a physical expression of indecision.
I like the comment above about the finger-painting; I used to work on portraits in church because I’d go insane if my hands weren’t doing something all the time. It is already unnatural enough for me not to be behind a keyboard during worship…
Anonymous
13 Nov 2006 (03:07)
You’ll want to make sure it’s aligned with God’s will. Samuel was always on Saul’s case about making gratuitous sacrifices that God wasn’t asking for. The whole to obey is better than sacrifice. If you want to create worship 2.0 make sure God’s asking you to do it. Just a thought or a focus point. Much Love.
Zadok
14 Nov 2006 (17:16)
Tis exciting to get such feedback from all of you. I do appreciate it greatly. I went to an Evensong service on one of your recommendations. It was interesting. A different experience than what I hope for, but the quiet and simplicity were beautiful. And I realize that I don’t know how to encompass all the elements of experiential/artistic worship into one hour service. It certainly can’t be all things, but it shouldn’t be one thing. I’ve even wondered about switching venues every time just to keep things fresh. I suppose I hope that there are enough worship outlets in town that those who feel suited towards finger-painting have a place, and those who are suited for Jazz Vespers have a place. I’m not sure yet. And I’m not sure how God’s will would be against the creation of a worship service as one of you wondered. Of course, it could turn to something self-serving and/or person-centered, but at this stage of creating and dreaming up a way to worship God, I don’t know how such a dream would be contrary to the will of God–who calls us to love him and others.
nicole
20 Nov 2006 (22:46)
I like Chris’ comment about fingerpainting and dancing in the rain, and Sarah’s about worship from the ground. I think many of the times I’ve felt most worshipful were times when I felt no constraints (from folding chairs hemming me in behind and before, or from the judging eyes of elders, or from the idea that as soon as I get this amazing tune in my head and can sing along, the music=worship time will be over); I could rest in the truth of the words I heard, repeated, and sang, I could fall to the ground in awe of our Lord, or I was filled with the joy of the Holy Spirit, and moved to dance.
Those times have been all too rare. I get emotionally overwhelmed to think we might be able to be a part of creating such a freeing experience of worship for anyone who truly desires to engage in the fullness of worship as we’re all describing in so many ways.
Anonymous
3 Dec 2006 (21:58)
Note to the other readers: I am a friend of Zadok who is “spiritual” but not Christian. I was hesitant at first to post here, because I don’t want to be the guy who disrupts the discussion by coming in with wildly divergent premises. So I sent a comment to Zadok privately, and, as I should have expected, he has requested of me that I post it here. So this is basically just a repost of the email I sent him……
Zadok — I just ready your entire blog, including all the comments. Boy, you have some insightful and committed friends! That is great.
And of course your ideas and visions are incredibly inspired.
I don’t feel comfortable adding a comment to your blog because I don’t share the premises of your community, so I think my comments would be destructive to the flow of discussion.
So I will do it privately.
There is one premise that I feel compelled to challenge you on:
“we are against Satan”
My point of view:
“Satan” does not exist. “Satan” only exists as the projection of your very-human ego and the shadow of that which you are not willing to see in yourself and others. If there is any manner in which “Satan” DOES exist, you only FEED that existence by saying things like
“We are against Satan”
When you think of your Jesus, can you imagine any being or entity that He would not Love? Does Jesus Hate Satan? If your answer is “yes” than you have to accept the statement “Jesus hates”. Would you accept that statement? If your answer is “No… Jesus does not Hate”….. then, assuming you want to follow the model of Jesus, why would you hate, (admittedly my word, not yours) or be categorically AGAINST any entity? Well, I understand that as humans we will experience hatred, but why would you include that as a fundamental principle of your worship concept?
Another Question: How much of the concepts you have about “Satan” are actually explicated in the Bible, and how much of them have been developed in the minds of humans over the centuries?
Zadok
4 Dec 2006 (18:34)
Greg,
Your words and perspective are not taken lightly my friend–as no words here are, I hope. I will admit that the bullet points for the vision/brainstorm were written in a voice of passion laced with some cute attitude that do not give justice to the meaning and sincerity of my heart. You are correct, to give Satan such screen time on a vision statement is not only giving him power, but unnecessary. I’m gonna strip it out right now.
Regarding Jesus and hate–no simple discussion here as you already admitted. In short, I believe that in love, we also hate. I hate complacency, I hate greed. Is it enough for me to simply say I love action or generosity instead, and therefore omit the language of hate from my vocabulary? When I witness greed I would like to believe I hope(an act of love) in that moment for generosity to win out, but sometimes I begin with a hatred of the evil. Is this unhealthy? Is this semantics? I certainly cannot love well if I am plagued with a distaste for evil. I don’t want to be the guy serving at the soup kitchen because he hates poverty, but rather cherishes humanity. (I’m sure you’d agree here.) Back to Satan… So if the Devil–or my notions of a cosmic adversary–is an irreconcilable entity in this present world, I am grieved that there is a being God has not repaired but allowed to steal and murder. As a Christian I believe that this world is God’s painting of a wonderful story of redemption, a redemption of his creation. If the Devil and his minions do make it to heaven in the very end, I think I’m ok with that. For the time, the man in tights is the one actively screwing things up that God hates. Just as God hates it when I choose to steal and murder.
laurel
5 Dec 2006 (12:54)
to the last post:
this was good to read.
you know, even though your albums didn’t change everyone’s world, they did change mine.
all your ideas for worship sound prettymuch perfect.
thanks for leading us by example.
vanessa
10 Jan 2007 (01:46)
i echo patrick dodson: the world is dying for this. i know i am.
vanessa
10 Jan 2007 (02:10)
in my attempt to participate in what is called “worship” the repitition of one song, and specifically one line in a song, pushes me to transcend the confines of my logic and opens me to the flow of the spirit.